Interview with Roberta Olson and Alexander Johnson about their donation to Yale

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Roberta Olson and Alexander Johnson have made a very significant gift of a collection of Italian Ottocento drawings to the Yale University Art Gallery. We discuss this collection in an article published at the same time as this interview. Other sheets from the collection are also reproduced.

1. Roberta Olson and Alexander Johnson
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For how long have you been collecting?

Roberta: It is a long story. We have been collecting probably for sixty years in Alex’s case but together since 1971 and 1975 for the Ottocento. We don’t just collect nineteenth-century Italian drawing, but also French, German, English, Scandinavian (largely Danish) works…

Alexander: As well as original sculptures—terracotta, plaster, and wax—and small paintings.

From all centuries?

Alexander: Well, it ranges from the early sixteenth to the mid-twentieth centuries but the focus of the collection is very much on the late eighteenth to the mid nineteenth centuries.

Roberta: We begin with Fra Bartolomeo and Parmigianino and end with Picasso, Klee, de Chirico, Léger, etc., although we have a few contemporary things.

Why did you give this part of the collection, why to Yale, and what do they mean by gift/purchase?

Alexander: We agreed with the museum to split the value of the bulk of the collection between part purchase and part gift. In addition, we donated a group of twenty-four drawings as an outright gift. What was most important to us was to keep this collection, which is so unique, together. We don’t have any children and so we are at a point in our lives where we are thinking about the future and finding the appropriate homes for our quite large collection. There are a number of reasons why it is going to Yale. We have had many conversations with different museums who were interested in the collection. We had come to know Freyda Spira, who is the Robert L. Solley Curator of Prints and Drawings at the Yale University Art Gallery and had been at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, quite well. She also curated the Danish exhibition (“Beyond the Light”) this year at the Met and the Getty, to which we were a big lender of drawings and paintings.

Roberta: We were also pleased because Laurence Kanter is the chief curator at Yale and we also know the director, Stephanie Wiles. I have known Larry Kanter for a long time, who is known for his wonderful scholarship on Trecento and Quattrocento Sienese and Florentine painting, but only recently learned of his enthusiasm for Ottocento art. We wanted a place where the collection would be studied and exhibited. Yale is an academic institution with distinguished departments of Classics and Italian Studies, and were delighted to learn that those two departments are also interested. In addition, there is a family connection: Alex’s father, who was chairman of the English department at Princeton University, received his Ph.D. from Yale and we also have a nephew who went to Yale. So, it was just a kind of serendipitous perfect storm, and we have the feeling that it is the right moment and the right place.

Did you keep some Ottocento Italians drawings?

Alexander: We gave the great majority of the collection. There are about fifteen drawings that we acquired largely after we began our discussions; we assume that they will eventually be given to Yale so that we can keep the collection altogether. We continue to be very active collectors in all fields. The fact that we are giving these works to Yale does not mean that we won’t continue to collect or give to other museums.

Roberta: And I should add that the collection includes Italian sculptures, such as works by Bartolini, Pinelli, and Gemito, and we have quite a few Italian oil sketches and paintings which were not part of this gift.

You are an art historian so do you buy anonymous drawings that you study and attribute, or are they always with a name? Because there are no anonymous drawings in the donation…

Roberta: We do buy anonymous sheets and we also love the challenge of attributing them correctly.

Alexander: There are a number of anonymous drawings which are not part of this gift, which we did not include because they did not have a solid attribution. It is a good point that you raise because we actually love discoveries and are not afraid to buy unattributed drawings if the quality warrants it.

Do you sometimes disagree on a work of art one wants to buy and not the other one ? And what do you do if this happens ? You buy ? You do not buy ?

Roberta: We agree about 95 percent of the time. In the rare instance when one of us is strongly opposed, we will generally pass on the opportunity. The give and take between the two of us is an important way of vetting acquisitions.

Your drawings are on the walls or in boxes?

Roberta (laughing): You’ll have to come over!

Alexander: Our walls are covered with drawings. But the great majority are kept in drawers and cabinets, and also in closets. So we have drawings everywhere.

Roberta: And we also collect antique frames and have about five different rooms with closets that are filled with period frames and framed drawings. Alex also restores frames; he uses dental equipment and makes plaster casts to replace missing pieces, and he is an expert at antiquing them.

Where do you buy? Auctions? Dealers? In France, Italy, United States?

Alexander: We buy everywhere: from auctions, private collectors, dealers, booksellers, occasionally in flea markets although not recently… It is very difficult to buy in Italy because of the export laws. But we will buy almost anywhere. And obviously, with the internet it is very easy to access little auctions, but at the same time it is also easy for everybody else! It has become more difficult to make discoveries.

Roberta: Let’s roll back the clock to the early seventies before the internet, when we actually bought from faxes. With drawings (not paintings), if you know the artist’s style, you can without a terribly good image understand whether the attribution is correct. When we first came to New York, after Princeton, Madison Avenue used to be the major hub for galleries, as well as Soho for contemporary art. We used to go up and down Madison Avenue during the week-end and visit galleries to educate ourselves but also to hunt, to look for things, and we met so many people that way, which was fabulous. And we went to unlikely places, including a store that specialized in Judaica, whose owner said, “Yes, I actually have an album with 284 drawings.” It was in a beautiful, huge Morroco-bound and gold-tooled album, compiled by Giovanni Piancastelli who was the curator of the Borghese Gallery and teacher of the Borghese children. It represented his view of modern art—spanning from Appiani and Canova through Balla. We could not afford to purchase it, but we knew it was a great thing. I was just finishing my dissertation and the Shepherd Gallery found a sponsor and they bought the album and organized an exhibition and asked me to write the catalog. So I was finishing my dissertation during the day and working on the catalog at night with Alex of course helping…

Alexander: It was in 1975-76—that was how we were introduced to this field and we immediately began to collect it. Very few people in United States knew anything about this period.

2. Cover of the exhibition catalogue Italian Drawings 1780-1890
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Roberta: But we discovered that there was another cache of Piancastelli’s collection that the Hewitt sisters bought and gave to the Cooper-Hewitt Museum, many of which are decorative drawings. This was our introduction, and we knew that the album was an exciting discovery and that we needed to educate ourselves So, I delved into the period, which led to a major exhibition that opened at the National Gallery of Art (Italian Drawings 1780–1890 - ill. 2), organized by the American Federation of the Arts. It was wonderful: the Gabinetto disegni e stample degli Uffizi, the Castello Sforzesco, the Gabinetto disegni e estampe in Rome all loaned multiple works to this fabulous exhibition, whose catalogue was picked by the New York Times as one of the ten best art books of the year. The exhibition opened people’s eye to this lagtely unexplored field.


3. Bartolomeo Pinelli (1781–1835)
Neapolitan Woman Praying to the Virgin for Her Sick Mother, 1815
Watercolor, brown ink, graphite - 19.5 x 24.3 cm
New Haven, Yale University Art Gallery
Photo: Yale University Art Gallery
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4. Bartolomeo Pinelli (1781–1835)
Procession of the Penitent Sacconi outside the Colosseum, 1815
Watercolor, brown ink, and graphite - 18.1 x 23,5 cm
New Haven, Yale University Art Gallery
Photo: Yale University Art Gallery
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But it is not so usual to collect Italian drawings from the 19th century?

Alexander: No, there are certain artists that people know about: Giani, Canova, Boldini, and certainly, Pinelli, who was very prolific… But we came to understand that Pinelli’s art consisted of more than the typical costumes (ill. 3 et 4) and scenes (costume), he also drew extraordinary, large neoclassical compositions earlier in his career (ill. 5 et 6). Moreover, he was a great portraitist, and we have two beautiful, large portraits by Pinelli… They are not part of this collection but will eventually be given. We came to really love the surprising diversity of the Ottocento.


5. Bartolomeo Pinelli (1781–1835)
Athena Appearing to Telemachus, 1809
Brown and black ink and washes - 42.5 x 57.5 cm
New Haven, Yale University Art Gallery
Photo: Yale University Art Gallery
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6. Bartolomeo Pinelli (1781–1835)
Achilles Dragging the Body of Hector, 1808
Brown ink, brown and gray wash, graphite - 40.6 x 54.6 cm
New Haven, Yale University Art Gallery
Photo: Yale University Art Gallery
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Roberta: For example, the Neapolitan school, which was not well known outside of Italy. To understand it, we spent time in Naples and environs. In the Ottocento Italian art was still very regional, even after the onset of the movement for political unification of Italy, which did not exist before 1860 and was only finally united in 1870. It was known as the Risorgimento (from the verb meaning to rise up: risorgere). In Florence, people tend to focus on the Florentine Macchiaioli - we have bought several recently but they are difficult to find.


7. Luigi Sabatelli (1772–1850)
Ugolino and His Sons in the Torre della Fame Prison, 1793–95
Brown ink, graphite - 29.6 x 37.8 cm
New Haven, Yale University Art Gallery
Photo: Yale University Art Gallery
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8. Andrea Appiani (1754–1817)
Apollo before Jupiter and the Gods on Olympus, c. 1810
Brown ink, red chalk, graphite -19.5 x 26.7 cm
New Haven, Yale University Art Gallery
Photo: Yale University Art Gallery
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Alexander: Although we wanted to collect the entire period, we focused on the years between 1780 and 1850, not so much the latter part of the century. There are certain artists that we particularly like an have collected in depth : Bartolini and Gigante as well as the great Proto-Romantic draftsmen who were in the Accademia dei Pensieri, among them Sabatelli (ill. 7), Appiani (ill. 8), Giani (ill. 9 et 10), and Pinelli…


9. Felice Giani (1758–1823)
Galatea with the Rape of Europa in the Background, 1770s
Brown ink - 19 x 26.9 cm
New Haven, Yale University Art Gallery
Photo: Yale University Art Gallery
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10. Felice Giani (1758–1823)
Garden at the Villa Aldini, Montmorency, with Paris in Background, 1810
Brown ink, brown wash, graphite - 49.5 x 58 cm
New Haven, Yale University Art Gallery
Photo: Yale University Art Gallery
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In the press communicate they say it is « late 18th- and 19th- century » but you have earlier drawings, for example three Ubaldo Gandolfi which are at least for one mid-18th century.

Alexander: There are a few earlier drawings, which we agreed laid a foundation for developments in the Ottocento: the Piazzetta (ill. 11), the Tommaso Maria Conca, and the Gandolfi (ill. 12). We do have sixteenth- and seventeenth-century Italian drawings and a beautiful Tiepolo from the Pulcinella series which are not included.


11. Giovanni Battista Piazzetta (1683–1754)
Young boy Reading a Book, 1740
Black and white chalk - 37.6 x 29.7 cm
New Haven, Yale University Art Gallery
Photo: Yale University Art Gallery
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12. Ubaldo Gandolfi (1728–1781)
Urania or Astronomia, c. 1770–80
Brown ink, wash - 19.9 x 16.4 cm
New Haven, Yale University Art Gallery
Photo: Yale University Art Gallery
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Roberta: The Tiepolo was not in the group because Yale has a number of works by the artist.

There is something I did not understand: there are two artists with exactly the same name, Giovanni Battista Cipriani, but not the same dates. There is one album and one drawing…

13. Giovanni Battista Cipriani (1766-1839)
The Castel Sant’Angelo, c. 1810
Black ink and wash - 17.6 x 20 cm
New Haven, Yale University Art Gallery
Photo: Yale University Art Gallery
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Alexander: There are two unrelated artists named Giovani Battista Cipriani. The album is by the later (ill. 13), less well-known artist, who was a printmaker and did drawings as you can see in the album that are beautiful small vedute.

Roberta: Like miniatures for the Grand Tour.

14. Giovanni Battista Cipriani (1727–1785)
Three Studies of a Female Nude with a Putto, c. 1770
Black ink, graphite, brown wash - 27 x 23.7 cm
New Haven, Yale University Art Gallery
Photo: Yale University Art Gallery
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Alexander: The earlier Cipriani (ill. 14) is the more widely known eighteenth-century artist who also executed decorative commissions in England.

I am puzzled because you do not have so many drawings by mid-1850 century close to French artists such as Ingres or what we call in France « juste milieu » like Delaroche. For example, you do not have Luigi Mussini, or you have only one drawing by Hayez.

15. Francesco Hayez (1791–1882)
Woman on a Balcony Looking at a Canal in Venice, c. 1841
Black and red chalk - 21 x 17.4 cm
New Haven, Yale University Art Gallery
Photo: Yale University Art Gallery
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Roberta: We would love to have them but drawings of quality from this period rarely surface. We were thrilled when we found the Hayez (ill. 15) - it is a fairly recent acquisition - because you do not find Hayez drawings on the market very often. As an aside, we do have works by Ingres and Delaroche, as other major early nineteenth-century French artists, such as Delacroix and Géricault.

Alexander: I think one of the other reasons is that many artists’ works still reside with their descendants. Another issue is that if you find a great Hayez portrait, it will probably not be approved for export. As a result, much of our collection comes from German, French, English, American dealers and auction houses. Some come from Italian sources but it can be difficult to obtain approval for export from the appropriate Soprintendenza, and that has to a certain extent determined the composition of the collection.
We bought a beautiful Appiani at Christie’s in Milano about I guess eight years ago. And after we had purchased and paid for it the State decided that it would not approve the exportation, and so the dance began. They did not want to buy it, leaving us stuck with the drawing which could not leave Italy. They ultimately changed their mind and decided to buy it, however, they said that I paid too much in auction and asked for a discounted price, which I refused, intending to leave it with friends in Italy. Finally, they came around and agreed to acquire it, but it was another year before they paid for it. And then about two years later, Christie’s contacted me and asked what we planned to do about the drawing since the State had purchased the work for an Italian museum but had not retrieved it!


16. Giacinto Gigante (1806–1876)
View of Arlamato Caserlano, Sorrento, c. 1850
New Haven, Yale University Art Gallery
Photo: Yale University Art Gallery
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17. Giacinto Gigante (1806–1876)
Naples from the Conocchia, 1835
Watercolor and gouache - 14.7 x 21.7 cm
New Haven, Yale University Art Gallery
Photo: Yale University Art Gallery
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There is a remarkable artist, you have many sheets by him: Giacinto Gigante. Can you talk about him? (ill. 16 à 19)

Roberta: He belongs at the so-called School of Posillipo, which was a fishing village outside Naples. He and the Dutch artist Pitloo, together with Vianelli and others, began to paint outdoors in the 1820s. I have always been interested in the connection between English artists and other nationalities who painted extraordinarily fresh plein-air watercolors around Naples. For us it is very interesting because we also collect English watercolors and drawings in depth. Gigante also painted in oil, and we actually have an extraordinary oil sketch of an oncoming storm over Sorrento that is boldly and freely painted.


18. Giacinto Gigante (1806–1876)
View of Naples and
Vesuvius from Posillipo
, 1835
Watercolor and gouache - 14.5 x 21.6 cm
New Haven, Yale University Art Gallery
Photo: Yale University Art Gallery
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19. Giacinto Gigante (1806–1876)
View of Cliffs Near Amalfi, 1850
Watercolor, gouache, white lead heightening - 20.5 x 26.8 cm
New Haven, Yale University Art Gallery
Photo: Yale University Art Gallery
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Alexander: Among the many works by Gigante is an album, purchased from a French dealer, containing 55 drawings and watercolors, most of which are early. There is another drawing in the collection, a late sheet that you may not have noticed in grey wash with the smoking Mount Vesuvius in the background, which is a very personal drawing (ill. 20).

20. Giacinto Gigante (1806–1876)
View from Posillipo, of Naples and Mount Vesuvius, 1860?
Graphite, gray wash - 16.5 x 24.5 cm
New Haven, Yale University Art Gallery
Photo: Yale University Art Gallery
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Roberta: Gigante’s inscriptions identify the house where he was born and where his grandfather, grandmother, father and mother died, as well as the house of the « monacha pittrice », the nun who paints. And we like it because it is such a personal notation, obviously done for himself, revealing his great love of Naples. His watercolors are very luminous, very transparent, evoking the southern Italian light.

Alexander: Many watercolors by Gigante have condition problems. Condition is critical to us and is generally a major factor in our decision to acquire any work of art . We made a couple of exceptions when a drawing was related to an important work, for example, Bartolini’s study for his sculpture Carita Educatrice. It was one of the very first drawings that we bought.


21. Pelagio Palagi (1775–1860
Vetturia and Coriolanus, c. 1822
Brown and gray wash, graphite with white heightening - 25.5 x 20.8 cm
New Haven, Yale University Art Gallery
Photo: Yale University Art Gallery
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22. Ippolito Caffi (1809–1866)
Pantheon and the Piazza del Pantheon, 1840–50
Watercolor, graphite - 19 x 26.2 cm
New Haven, Yale University Art Gallery
Photo: Yale University Art Gallery
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Is it correct to say that: you like neoclassical subjects (ill. 21), landscapes (ill. 22), sculptors’ drawings (ill. 23) and albums?

Roberta: Yes, but our interests are very broad, and we love portraits (ill. 24) and drawings that are studies for finished works.


23. Vincenzo Gemito (1852–1929)
Self-Portrait, 1912
Graphite - 11 x 6.6 cm
New Haven, Yale University Art Gallery
Photo: Yale University Art Gallery
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24. Carlo Randanini (?–1884)
Portrait of Young girl in Ciociara Costume
Watercolorn, black ink - 11.5 x 10.2 cm
New Haven, Yale University Art Gallery
Photo: Yale University Art Gallery
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It does not seem so obvious from the collection for Yale, there are so many portraits?

25. Bartolomeo Pinelli (1781–1835)
Self-Portrait, 1807
Brown ink and wash, graphite - 13 x 20.5 cm
New Haven, Yale University Art Gallery
Photo: Yale University Art Gallery
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Alexander: No but there are a several. There is a great, early Pinelli self-portrait (ill. 25), a wonderful Boldini portrait of John Singer Sargent (ill. 26), which is one of our favorites, and several Sabatelli portraits, including one of the young Bezzuoli when he was in Sabatelli’s studio and one of the printmaker Rossini. In the rest of our collection, we have around 70 portraits of artists or self-portraits, not so many in this collection simply because they are hard to find.

26. Giovanni Boldini (1842–1931)
Portrait of John Singer Sargent in Black Tie and Top Hat, c. 1885
Watercolor - 17 x 10 cm
New Haven, Yale University Art Gallery
Photo: Yale University Art Gallery
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Roberta: And I should also say just to give you an idea of the scope of the overall collection, there are about 1200 drawings, 75 sculptures (many original Rodin plasters, waxes, and terracottas), and about 100 paintings.

This collection, you told me you would give it also to museums, do you already know which part in which museum?

Alexander: We expect that the additional Ottocento drawings will find a home at Yale and hope that there will be an exhibition of the collection. There are a number of museums who have approached us about the Danish drawings because of the current Danish exhibition, but we have yet to give much thought to what will happen to the rest of the collection, for example, the German Romantic works.

Roberta: We also collect late eighteenth- and early nineteenth-century English watercolors and drawings. Alex’s parents had a distinguished English watercolor collection so Alex was exposed to them at an early age. I’ve always liked the English and planned to write an undergraduate thesis on Blake; therefore, I was ecstatic when we acquired a Blake drawing several years ago.

As you might imagine, it is very hard to part with this collection of Ottocento drawings and watercolors, compiled over fifty years, a true labor of love. As we said earlier, at some point you have to let things go, and it was most important to find a good home for the collection.

Interview by Didier Rykner

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